I should be shocked but I am not. Research from the Fawcett Society shows that it is a postcode lottery when it comes to rape victims accessing justice.
Data obtained by the equality campaigning group, the Fawcett Society, reveals that in the worst area, Dorset, fewer than one in 60 women who went to police in 2007 saw an attacker convicted of rape. Although the conviction rate rose slightly to 7% across England and Wales from 2006, the figure fell in 16 out of 42 police forces, 12 of which had a conviction rate below 5%. In Warwickshire the figure was 2.9%, and Essex, Suffolk and Cambridgeshire all had a rate of 3.1%.
The response from Detective Superintendent Mark Cooper, Dorset’s director of public protection, stated that the 2007 conviction rate of 1.6% ‘did not look good’……
So what are you going to do?!
Fawcett Society are right when they conclude that it is an absolute scandal that women are being denied justice along with the ignorance, sexist double-standards and ‘victim blaming’ that exists in this society when it comes to rape.
And the uphill struggle rape victims have to go to receive basic support especially with the continued threat of closures and lack of funding regarding Rape Crisis Centres.
How many women are put off from reporting a rape because of this??
This is utterly disgusting
This is fucking outrageous. The victim-blaming goes on here too, especially in cases where footballers are accused. The media goes on this spree claiming women lead men on because they want fame and fortune! These ideas are utterly revolting.
Facebook groups have sprung up defending these footballers and even some of my female friends were joining it.
Ouch! 7%?
We all hope 100% but that isn’t likely, I would have said 70% should be the amount at least. 7% is just 10% of that.
When that couldn’t seem to be worse… as low as 2.9% and 3.1% where I am … blimey.
This has to be another problem to credit towards NL.
Not all rape cases are indeed genuine. In Ipswich there was a time not so long ago when someone claimed to be raped in an area of CCTV coverage – when this was reviewed no one was near her discarding her account of events and she had no other signs of being raped or sexually assaulted.
She wasn’t prosecuted for making a false claim and wasting police time – as you can expect claims like this make people scared to go out at night and personally to my definition is an act of Terrorism. It scares people into living their own lives due to fears of injury, attack, intimidation or death
There are sadly a small minority of women like this out there and that is why that there will never be 100% conviction rate (real justice exists out there somewhere) however 7% is completely shocking.
I was reading an article actually about the Suffolk police force celebrating for solving a record (don’t quote me on this…) 38% of cases. Damn, that is a reason to be very concerned about.
So knowing this figure, a low conviction rate doesn’t surprise me if I am honest, I have read for some times about funding cuts etc. and poor policing, however, I thought it was around 50-60% – but 7%?!!
Can you confirm you didn’t leave out a digit before that making it slightly better i.e. 17% or 27%?
This makes it by my very rough calculations that 15 in 16 rape cases end without a conviction. Disgusting.
Without disagreeing with your sentiments (I agree that it’s terrible when crimes goes unpunished) it’s important to be statistically literate.
100 women went to the police. That doesn’t mean there were 100 incidents of rape. There could have been anywhere between 0 and 100. If 100% of complaints resulted in conviction, that would suggest (probably) that some innocent people were being convicted of rape, unless you believe that 100% of rape allegations are genuine in the eyes of the law.
Quite rightly, we insist on proof of guilt, not proof of innocence. Tragically, rape is a difficult crime to prove. We err on the side of letting rapists go free, rather than convicting the innocent. This doesn’t excuse the police failing to follow up on specific crimes, or bias against rape victims – but does explain why a 100% conviction rate is not necessarily a very good target.
People also have different definitions of “rape”.
Richard, did you read any of the links in the above post? What you write about is absolutely irrelevant to the data presented. You should feel ashamed of yourself having the above response to this post, let alone submitting it to publication.
Sentiment has nothing to do with this post or the subject matter. Please read below for a definition of the word ‘sentiment’ then click into the links and read the words presented then come back with a proper response.
sentiment
Noun
1. a mental attitude based on a mixture of thoughts and feelings: anti-American sentiment
2. (often pl) a thought, opinion, or attitude expressed in words: his sentiments were echoed by subsequent speakers
3. feelings such as tenderness, romance, and sadness, esp. when exaggerated: a man without the softness of sentiment [Latin sentire to feel]
I don’t disagree with your sentiments (2) – thoughts, opinions, or attitudes expressed in words. I share your horror that in some/several/many instances, people get away with their crimes, including rape. Is that proper enough?
What I write about is entirely relevant. I don’t actually know, of the 60 women who went to the police in Dorset, axactly how many were rape victims. Nor do you. I believe that many / the majority probably were, I also accept your view that the police may have devoted insufficient resources to pursuing genuine crimes. But you need to consider the nature of the data you use.
Putting sentiment (do you like what I did there?) aside, there are three entirely logical conclusions from the data you present (between 1% and 7% of rape accusations result in conviction). We don’t know which is true, although we have our suspicions.
– 93-99% of rapists get away (assuming guilt in all cases), perhaps because of juridical bias or insufficient police resources
– 93-99% of accusations are false
– Somewhere between the two extremes
An accusation is not, in itself, evidence of any crime. We shouldn’t be pushing for 100% of rape accusations to result in convictions. We should be pushing for 100% of crimes to result in convictions, and 100% of false accusations to result in acquittal. Sadly this is unrealistic.
Our justice system insists on innocence until proof of guilt. You can certainly argue that more resources should be devoted to investigating and proving guilt, or that you think there is bias in the system – but please, if you want to assume guilt rather than innocence, just come out and say it.
I know, personally, a guy who was accused, prosecuted and acquitted of rape – despite being found not guilty, he had to leave his job, move house and change his name. Do you assume that he was in fact guilty, despite due process? Where’s the justice for him?
Controversial post. I fully understand what you are saying but I have a feelings others wont understand as wont tackle it from a logical point of view.
And Dan, ditto to your response about one person in Ipswich!
Explain yourself!
Two paragraphs on one person as an example of women as liers. Obviously you are entitled to write this, but I feel it is totally irrelevant to the post and the links. Call be sentimental, but…
Please read the content not the number of paragraphs. I am posting a comment on a blog, not writing a book. Paragraphs in my blog comments are solely to make it easier to read.
And £1.4 million for “hundreds of thousands of women who have suffered appalling crimes of sexual violence in the capital” – Boris you’re having a laugh!
You are looking at around £1 million on administration and £400,000 on front line services. It is an insult more than anything.
Exactly!
I am glad you agree on something I have said.
Richard/Dan
Firstly, Dan the stats are correct.
Why is there an emphasis on women who falsely ‘cry rape’… ? Yet not with other crimes, why is the emphasis on this particular crime? Women are raped and the treatment they receive is appalling and shocking. They are denied justice. Do you think it is easy to report it and have to take it further? We live in a society that prefers to disbelieve, ignore or just blame the woman.
It does indeed make me angry about how women are treated when raped.
Word! Indeed the report about London funding states that only 10% of victims report. And why is there emphasis on women at all – it is always a women’s issue but (virtually always) it is men who rape so it is a male problem!!
How sexist and stupid can you be?
“it is men who rape so it is a male problem”
If that is the case then surely, if it isn’t a woman problem then there needs to be NO funding for VICTIMS only funding for POLICE forces like they get in general anyway.
I STRONGLY DISAGREE AGAINST THIS!!!
That should have said 50% of victims report. Typo!
I totally agree with Harpy. It’s absurd to scrutinise women so much when it comes to reporting rape and not other crimes.
I was not sticking any emphasis on people who “falsely ‘cry rape’” – I am genuinely glad that people deep down in their hearts feel for this cause (like I do, however can I not because I am male?) however reading my comments back for example no emphasis was on false claims of rape.
It’s obvious why there’s emphasis on false accusers. For most trials, if you are tried and acquitted the consequences aren’t that severe. Those acquitted of rape get off less lightly. Your interpretation of the data suggests that all those who are acquitted are in fact guilty.
Both rape, and false accusations of rape, are terrible problems for society. I take them both seriously – do you?
See here is when the sexes are divided.
It seems my comments yet again said with all good intentions were taken the wrong way. I am not accusing any rape victim as liars nor women in general. Obviously, regardless of any rape cases being genuine, every rape victim is genuine otherwise you wouldn’t be a victim of rape.
Why the fuck me being male turns this into a largely sexist debate – yes most rapists are men – but I am not – why is this directed so badly at me?
All I am saying is:
1) the rate is disgustingly low – Louise, I weren’t accusing you of lying the figures just hoped that there was a figure missing before it i.e. want the conviction rate to be higher. As for all people talking on this topic who are being over offended by my comments because of them being female and have not been raped (that’s good to hear) solely because I am stating it wont ever be 100%.
2) there are some very small minority false claims so there wont ever be 100% conviction rate for each rape case
3) the example I used was citing my claim that not all rape cases are genuine as otherwise someone would have responded asking for me to explain myself – please note terminology. “CASE” means a claim of rape – majority will be genuine. “VICTIM” means someone who has been through rape and all rape victims are genuine.
4) all rape victims are genuine – otherwise you cant be a victim
5) the fund to combat this problem is a joke…
6) and so is anyone who despises me for my opinion
Dan, have a look at Rape Crisis re legal definition of rape http://www.rapecrisis.org.uk/law/definitionofrape.html
If you are speaking about ‘small minority’ who make so-called ‘false claims’ then why not make it any other crime. Why emphasise that?
No one is directing anything badly at you Dan, this is the thing about debate. Why do you need to bring up false claims? When so many women are denied a voice, disbelieved, ignored, blamed and subjected to the sexist double standards that exist.
And I don’t think it is so when you say the sexes are divided.
No, the thing about debate is an equally balanced discussion. You are talking about a one sided argument which obviously isn’t a debate.
Because I am being criticised rather than specifically the points I make being criticised then I believe it is being directed at me.
I am aware the legal definition of rape. It is rather a difficult thing to prove because it is generally someones word and against someone elses.
Penetration alone and a claim of rape doesn’t constitute rape. The man has to have believed that she didn’t give her consent to him in addition to her not giving him her consent.
Tougher sentences are required to tackle this problem.
Dan, it is a shame you are feeling so defensive about this. Men are often unable to talk logically about this topic and retreat into facts and figures, and talking about irrelevancies like 100% conviction rates and bringing out examples of false accusers. Perhaps this comes into play because male rape is generally seen as worse than female rape, I don’t know. Perhaps you could reflect on this and let me know. Harpy, I think the sexes are widely divided on this. While men are in charge of the instruments of power and justice then there can never be anything but division.
Some of the main points in this discussion should be:
- why the conviction of reported rapes is so low
- what can be done about this to convict more rapists
- sentencing of rapists is ridiculous
- what can be done for the victims of rape to stop this rape effecting them for the rest of their lives – i.e. actual funding for rape crisis centres, and this should be accessible to all rape victims including the 50-75% of un-reported cases, and the funding should be available based on reported and un-reported cases.
- why 50-75% of rapes are unreported. Obviously it is perceived that because there is little point in reporting as nothing is likely to be done. But there are also other factors in play such as the massive male dominance of the policing and legal systems.
- what can be done to stop men raping.
“why the conviction of reported rapes is so low”
tony b, who you are in agreement to suggests that legalities and figure speculation is wrong.
The reason why conviction rates aren’t higher is due to the legal system… therefore that question can’t be answered without assessing the legalities and the statistics around it.
“what can be done about this to convict more rapists”
Well… It has to be one of the hardest things ever to give evidence in front of an attacker or simply share the same courtroom with someone who raped you.
Out of logic speculation (and not necessarily factual or statistical data) I would say possibly one of the reasons why the conviction rate is so low could be due to the barrier of not wanting to give oral evidence in court which is fulyl understandable. Glad talking legalities is wrong because I don’t know the legalities around that.
“sentencing of rapists is ridiculous”
Same with most laws actually. They are written as “not to exceed” i.e. maximum terms, rather than something on the lines of “to serve a minimum of x years for this offence”. It then simply raises the doubt of the worst case scenario and trying to compare between which is plain wrong. Then again me just typing previous quote makes me realise that whatever sentence is given, everyone seems to serve less then it anyway. PATHETIC!
“what can be done for the victims of rape to stop this rape effecting them for the rest of their lives”
I seriously don’t understand why such funding is low and almost non-existent. Considering the NHS spends enormous amounts of money on advertising and stop smoking services etc. This said, female politicians etc. are not any closer to making this happen not that gender should be a factor in the decision of this anyway. You said about being accessible to all: are you telling me the existing services are only available to reported rape crimes?
“why 50-75% of rapes are unreported.”
That is a speculative figure. My opinion would be it is easier said to make someone pay for doing a crime but a couple of reasons I would consider why they are not reported are: 1) the emotional effects of the ordeal. Feeling dirty, violated etc. can easily scar someone for life. It is hard to report it to friends or family let alone the police. 2) reporting is just one part. Having to stand up in court is to most victims like experiencing the ordeal all over again. You can then understand why victims can think once is enough. 3) rape is up to life imprisonment but life doesn’t mean life and no one normally gets maximum term. Victims are going to be worried about if he isn’t convicted that he might go after her or if he goes to jail that when he comes out (if he does) that he would do the same.
That was uncalled for – male dominance of police and legal systems – is neither here or there.
Are you telling me the conviction rate is so low due to men being involved and some sort of corruption exists that no man will arrest and jail another man because the crime was done towards a woman?
I have a right to be offended for that. The C.o.S isn’t required – I want to see this changed as much as you do and justice served.
“what can be done to stop men raping”
That is the big question. All about control rather than pleasure so… control freaks will be high priority, however, it is innocent until proven guilty so you can’t tag those people when they haven’t committed a crime.
Dan, I am glad you are offended as you show a very basic knowledge of rape, power and gender. Please use your offended feelings to spur you to go read and learn more then come back and comment again.
“Men are unable to talk logically about this topic”. I disagree.
Nobody on this thread, apart from me and Dan, has addressed the logical distinction between reported rapes and actual crimes. This distinction is important.
Both Dan and I are disgusted by rape. We seem to agree that rapists should be tried, convicted and sentenced. We agree that substantial resources should be devoted to this.
But because we draw attention to this important logical distinction, the rest of you have sworn at us, told us we should be ashamed, and failed to respond to the points we have made in good faith. One of you has suggested that the point I made about burden of proof is irrelevant and sexist – in a thread relating to convicting people of serious crimes.
Thanks everyone.
this is a misquote – you have removed the often!
My mistake. Should have included the “often”. You say that “Men are often unable to talk logically about this topic”.
Can I write, then, that “Women are often unable to talk logically about this topic?” Or would that be sexist?
Perhaps we’ll just leave it that “People are often unable to talk logically about this topic”. Seems less provocative. Now – what do you think of the logical distinction that I have drawn between crime and accusation?
I think the point here is not to get bogged down in non-existent legal debates: no one I have ever come across has seriously suggested changing the burden or standard or proof. The legal response is only one response to rape (although it is a necessary one). What I think people are looking for is a recognition that rape is a serious problem and that it is an obscene way to treat another human being. I think people are not taught in this society to think about their political responses to things. Let the lawyers worry about the burden of proof etc. That is what they are paid to do. But to go on about the legalities or to spout rather simplistic statistical speculation every time the topic of rape comes up is wrong and oppressive. All blokes, and I am a bloke, need to confront it politically. It is a simple bit of politics that can be achieved by behaving like a decent human being, it is not as though it needs an understanding of the relationship between relative and absolute surplus value for instance.
Yes tonyb! Sadly ‘people are not taught in this society to think’ at all – drones should not think.
Nobody on this thread, myself included, has disagreed that “rape is a serious problem and that it’s an obscene way to treat another human being.”
The thread kicks off with discussion of conviction rates – the legal response is not just one of many responses we can have, it is a necessary consideration in any response we propose.
If you suggest that we should devote more police resources to rape cases, fair enough. Produce the data showing resources (budgets/man-hours/ratio of charges to accusations on rape), compared to other crimes, and let’s have that debate.
If you suggest that there is male bias in the judiciary, this will be harder to demonstrate, but I’m fully behind any attempt to try.
“Spout rather simplistic statistical speculation”.
The thread begins with some pretty simplistic statistical speculation. I’ve simply tried to draw attention to this. My response to it isn’t “simplistic”, but it is simple – I think simplicity is good.
1%-7% of rape accusations resulting in convictions is not sufficient evidence, on its own, of inadequate resources or of bias in the system. It is necessary to demonstrate that rapists have been acquitted where a crime was proved, or provable. While I agree that 1%-7% sounds surprising low, I haven’t seen this evidence. I’d be very happy to be referred to it.
thanks
“That was uncalled for – male dominance of police and legal systems – is neither here or there.
Are you telling me the conviction rate is so low due to men being involved and some sort of corruption exists that no man will arrest and jail another man because the crime was done towards a woman?”
You don’t get it Dan, that’s not what is being argued, it is not a personal attack on you but it isn’t ‘neither here nor there’. It’s a relevant observation, it is a political observation about the state of this society, where the judiciary is misogynistic and so is the police, what kind of reception do women get at the police station? Research has shown that police forces deal with, for example, domestic violence. There isn’t a consistency policy in the police force and there should be. Again, it is a postcode lottery some police forces are better at dealing DV than others. Shouldn’t be.
And it is pretty much similar with investigating rape. The cops may have come along since that appalling documentary in the early 80s where cops were interrogating a rape victim like she was the criminal. It is vile to watch. And that’s why we need fight this institutionalised misogyny, along with other forms of oppression people face.
But this again reflects the power relationships between men and women, the institutions reflect this power imbalance due to the society we live in.
And as tonyb says it is about confronting unequal power relationships politically.
There is a major problem with reporting, evidence gathering and conviction rates for rape. We are seeing an increase in blaming the woman ‘cos she was drunk, ‘cos she had been a willing participant, and so on.
And rape crisis centres are disappearing due to lack of funding and other support centres that deal with sexual violence are being starved of funding. There are, shamefully, 50% less rape crisis centres now than in 1985! These centres are a lifeline for many women to get practical help and support. And a safe place where a woman is listened to.
The excuses piled onto women who have experienced sexual violence, reflects dominant sexist ideology that women still “ask for it”. It also creates ambiguities that aren’t there and de-politicises rape as well. We need to move beyond this and stop this incessant “woman blaming”.
That’s the reality women face!
Indeed, this is what I was trying to say.
Her being intoxicated isn’t a reason to justify rape – you are truly right there.
I hope by “cos she had been a willing participant” you mean a his-word-against-hers in a false statement. As if she was indeed willing to have sex with him then it isn’t rape.
I don’t know the statistics for it but solely from presumption due to increased press coverage, rape etc seems to be on the increase, why are there half as many as there were around 25 years ago?
What do you mean by women still “ask for it”?
Well, I am not stepping down on my views.
If the legal and police system is highly dominated by men and you think the conviction rate is so low because of that reason, your intentions regardless of how good they are, you are doing much more to halt the increase in funding of adequate policing and for support of rape victims by creating unnecessary friction between “the system” and “the victims of the system”.
If you want this changed you need to oppose and expose the system, not by prematurely looking at statistics of gender demographics in the system and presuming that is the reason why the system has failed thousands of rape victims.
All you are doing is alienating everyone in the system – who are mostly men – and instantly ensuring no changes are made.
I hope you are willing to take collectively delegated responsibility with everyone else who are tackling this from the same view point as you for the delay in justice being served.
Perhaps you should have a break from this post. Read it again calmly and consider whether I do have a point in all this.
Poor fucking men. Boo-hoo.
If your main point of contention in a post about sexism is poor men then you really don’t get the point of the fucking issue of sexism.
Definitely upset.
“Perhaps you should have a break from this post. Read it again calmly and consider whether I do have a point in all this.”
And this comment is so fucking sexist too. As if a woman can’t rationally think. Maybe you need to pull back from your defensive male ego and think thins through.
I never said that – you are presuming things. This is a serious issue, please do not go off topic and turn it into a personal dispute.
Thins? You clearly have not stopped and read through your comment which was only a few sentences long… and that was what my comment was referring to.
You have gone on the rebound because we have different views and making this a personal dispute. Once again, I have not turned this into a personal attack on anyone because our views are different to each others.
You could always try counting to 10.
This will also act as a human version of a spam flood filter.
Dan: This isn’t personal. It’s a fucking political point. Saying to a woman that she is not thinking through rationally is fucking sexist.
How could anyone take you seriously in talking about a subject relating to women’s oppression if you make sexist comments like that?
Excuse me for using Firefox’s search feature on my comments… I have never used the “r” word in my posts.
Funnily enough by the time I wrote my count to 10 post.. you had already responded. Let me guess it may also be the case when I press “Submit Comment” this time.
I am disappointed that in order for your view to take presence over mine (when both are of the same equal importance subject to discretion of the blog viewer) you had to result in accusing me of being sexist.
The facts point to you being sexist. Yes, that was the point of my comment, because well, for the reasons stated above, you are indeed a fucking sexist.
Thanks Benjamin, I agree with what you say, and for your solidarity and support, much appreciated.
Dan, you really need to take a break yourself, stop seeing this as personal and subjective, you resort to a knee jerk reaction which is utterly defensive.
And so I have taken a break. I have come back however and I still wont change my views on this matter.
Louise, comments are for posting views and opinions of the article and its subject not for necessarily standing in solidarity and support for your views solely because you posted the article and its your blog.
I apologise if my view is different to yours however reading my comments you should have noted that I am also on the same side wanting these changes too. I am being accused of being sexist here however it seems my support isn’t required because I am male… therefore the system wont ever change if you instantly exclude all the men however realise that the system is dominated by them.
For the record, with a name of Benjamin I thought you were male anyway so don’t come and accuse me of being sexist. You also think your opinion is fact. Absolutely pathetic.
Er, Richard nobody has sworn at you. Though it is appallingly sexist to state “Women are often unable to talk logically about this topic”…
Though interesting that out of the blokes who have commented you and Dan have resorted to the knee jerk reactions and defensiveness.
Just to be clear, I agree that would be appallingly sexist, just as I think it’s appallingly sexist for anyone to write such a comment about men. (please see earwicga’s earlier post). I think it’s fair to say, as I wrote “People are often unable etc. etc.”
If we can’t agree on this, we certainly won’t agree on more complex issues. But I note that you don’t have a crack at earwicga for her earlier post.
Far from defensive, I’ve actually been (and remain)highly supportive of much that has been written on this thread. I’d just like to challenge your use of statistics. So you reckon that the conviction rate for rape is too low at between 1 and 7%? What conviction rate would be better/acceptable/right?
Unfortunately, nobody has
– provided conclusive evidence that there’s anything wrong. Your evidence is only suggestive, therefore insufficient – it’s highly open to (logical) interpretation, as I’ve highlighted
– explained exactly what you want to happen (other than to get everyone excited and angry).
Are you proposing more police resources to be devoted to rape cases? In which case tell us how this would make a difference.
Are you suggesting that there should be better training for police officers handling rape cases? Hard to disagree – but tell us what training they receive now, and why it’s inadequate?
Are you suggesting that more rape allegations should be heard by female cops? Isn’t this already the case? (I actually don’t know)
I’m not defending the system – you may be right in saying that parts of it need (a lot of) work. But your evidence is insufficient, and nobody has made any practical suggestions.
Thanks
Richard, there is nothing exciting about rape and if you can’t see that conviction rate if 1-7% of reported rapes is wrong then I can’t see why you are even commenting on this post? I think you should go read some accounts of rape survivors to have a basis to comment on. I apologise of course if you have been raped and already know the issues.
And I must add – I do not post on blogposts where I know nothing about the content of the post. I will ask questions or look up issues to do with it if it is something new to me.
You may also note that I’ve expressed (three times) my horror and disgust about rape, and the fact that people get away with it. Reading more accounts of people’s experiences will almost certainly increase my personal revulsion, but is unlikely to change my opinions on society’s optimal response to crime.
But it might open your eyes to the police and legal system in relation to women, power and rape.
Thanks earwicga – grateful if you could explain. What is it, exactly, that you reckon I don’t get? I’m happy to be enlightened.
Thanks earwicga –
I know a lot about statistics, policy design and our legal system, hence my contributions. The reason that I comment is that I think Harpymarx has a point, but that the state of the world won’t be changed until the argument is made correctly.
Again – accusation does not mean guilt. An accusation of rape should only lead to conviction where somebody is found guilty. I believe that you’re probably right in saying that the conviction rate is too low, but this is insufficient evidence of a problem in the criminal justice system. You need to demonstrate this in other ways if you want to make a case for change.
Please respond to my constructive criticism, rather than complaining about my post. That’s the second time you’ve suggested that I shouldn’t comment on this thread – that approach won’t help HarpyMarx’s cause in the long run. Rape is an issue to be confronted by society, not just you.
You may note that I’ve previously asked several questions relating to the specifics of the subject, on which you’re probably more knowledgeable than me. I’d be interested in your answers.
Richard. Rape 101 – Reading 1
http://cereta.livejournal.com/652008.html
Richard. Rape 101 – Reading 2
http://gabrielleabelle.livejournal.com/108050.html
Richard. Rape 101 – Reading 3
http://oneinfourusa.org/statistics.php
I’ve checked out the US Centres for Disease Control – the only statistical source that is mentioned. Unfortunately I can’t comment on the rest of the stats as they are unsourced. Can’t find the study on college students – I did, however, find this one
http://www.ncjrs.gov/pdffiles1/nij/183781.pdf
This report states that 17.6% of US women were the subject of rape or attempted rape. This is the result of a telephone survey that appears to have been conducted pretty well, with two mistakes.
1. They assume that the sample they reach (people who happen to be in at the time of the call) is representative of the population as a whole). This is unlikely to be the case, depending on the time of the call.
2. More significantly, they don’t mention how many people can’t be bothered to take part in the survey at all. They have 8,000 respondents – but if (say)that’s the result of 80,000 calls, then 17.6% could be as low as 1.76%. Still 1.76% too many – but rather less dramatic. Of course this is conjecture – maybe all the non-respondents were in fact rape victims too, and the number should be higher. Just pointing out some methodological weaknesses.
I’m resigned to your impending response that this is a typical male sexist analysis, and that I just don’t “get it”.
Richard. Just in case you don’t bother to read the Rape 101 Readings I am pleased to highlight the following quote from reading 2.
“Don’t ask to be educated.
You’ll learn more by sitting back, shutting up, and following the conversation on your own than you will asking the women to see to your personal education.
Because, fact is, it’s tiring to educate people all the time. Personally, I typically don’t mind too much, but that’s my thing. I am not every woman. And jumping into a discussion on rape simply to ask someone to sit down and explain the basics to you when you don’t know anybody is presumptuous and irritating.
So don’t do it.
If just reading the discussion doesn’t cause any Lightbulb Moments, wait and ask a friend who is open to discussing the topic with you.
Because, again, oftentimes, the conversation isn’t about you, and by requesting that someone explain it to you, you are making it about you and your lack of understanding. When we could be talking about other, more important things than Basic Rape 101 for newbies.
Again, context. Again, it’s not personal. Again, it’s not about you.”
NB. The comments form an integral part of the reading so don’t skip them!
Richard. Rape 101 – Reading 4
http://thecurvature.com/2009/06/17/uk-officials-assigned-to-fight-rape-actually-promote-rape-myths/
Are you getting it yet, or would you like me to continue?
Ok, while I am on a roll, just one more for you Richard – lots of links from this post – you should get the idea by the end of this one.
Richard. Rape 101 – Reading 5
http://finallyfeminism101.wordpress.com/tag/rape/
Thanks earwicga
I’ve read all of the above, plus comments. As expected there are some pretty unpleasant anecdotes that cast men in a bad light. And there are some questionable statistics.
As before, I’m all for justice, it’s tragic and horrifying that people get away with crimes. I continue to support any constructive suggestions you all have to convict more criminals – while protecting the burden of proof.
Also, for what it’s worth, I’ve been “that man” on one notable occasion.
So what’s your point? The more you make this a “woman issue that men don’t get”; the more you say you can’t be bothered to communicate with men on this subject, the more you tell people like me that “it’s not about me” the more you retard progress in the direction that you’d like.
That sort of language has the effect of driving a wedge between men and women. While that may be what ultra-feminists want, it won’t actually have the effect of encouraging more enlightened behaviour from men. Lumping men together is more likely to make us want to stick together.
May I suggest, instead, that you concentrate on driving a wedge between the (I hope) majority of decent-minded men around, and those that treat women in an unacceptable way? Various of the respondents that you’ve directed me to suggest that part of the solution lies in persuading men to set better examples to one another, and to stick up for right and wrong. I’m all for that – but don’t patronise people like me by suggesting to us that we don’t know how.
Richard, I posted these links as they were debates about how rape is discussed and how we could progress to a situation where the culture doesn’t encourage rape – I know you debate the stats, which is your right, but they are horrifying and change is needed at a societal level. I am truly surprised that you feel patronised from reading these highly intelligent articles. I have nothing more to offer you Richard.
This is all about small-minded sexism.
Let me choose a case… Baby P. highly publicised so everyone reading this should have some clue about it. What percentage of those involved in the neglect were female?
That’s only the ice breaker.
Two Words… Baroness Scotland
In 2007 she became the first female Attorney General since the job was created in 1315, the first black woman to become a QC and the youngest since the 18th Century.
So it goes to prove that females in the legal system regardless of being a minority (female, black) are no different to men.
Debate over.
Dad, you are an idiot. Shut up.
I’ll repeat that comment without typos which tend to negate my negative feelings towards you Dan.
Dan, you are an idiot. Shut up.
I am not your dad – not sure what your problem is:
The character keys surrounding N is: BHJM
The keys slightly further are: VGK,
Not sure how you managed to get that typo that is unless you had me confused with someone else when you said that.
Dan, you obviously didn’t understand the first time so I’ll repeat it for you. DAN YOU ARE AN IDIOT, SHUT UP.